Injin

Gold Thread Economics Related Issues

38 posts in this topic

Okidoki

First of all, intrinsic value.

There is no such thing as intrinsic value. All such values are a human opinion about objects, that is they reside in the human mind, not in the objects themselves. They can go up, down, sideways. They can disappear entirely.

Second, demand for gold.

Gold is now and generally has been throughout history mostly sentiment driven. The actual market demand, that is "omg I SO need some gold right now" demand is and has always been a vanishingly small part of it. Even that part of it has been due to various social paradigms which are not currently as in force as they used to be. Previously one needed gold to pay temple tithes, to get married (in an age where no marriage meant no socially sanctioned sex) and if you were rich enough, to give to the king so he could look like a medieval BA Baracus.

Yes, wearing gold meant status. This was in an age where most people wore burlap and the shiniest thing avilable to human beings was the sweat on their foreheads.

Third, the gold standard.

This wasn't the market choosing gold, this was government choosing gold and then forcing everyone else to use it a gunpoint. Generally the government makes people do theings they don't want to do - i.e. it's inherently anti market.

Fourth, Gold is money.

No, it isn't. Money is the most commonly traded item in an economy. If you are in prison, this will be ciggies, porn or drugs. If you are in a farming commuity, it'll be some form of crop. Something with universal value, high in natural demand, easily divisible and tradable. Not that gold is worthless to people, of course it isn't. it just is too scarce to function as money. History shows this, gold is for kings, silver for nobles, copper for peasants, debt for slaves goes the quote.

How do we find out what money is?

We have a market. A free market. Then we let people trade amongst themselves. Eventually the most commonly traded item will appear. That's money. This is a process, one which no one gets to short cut by imposing their will on everyone else.

Fifth, Gold is chosen by all people at all times as money?

That's why theres fiat bloody money everywhere is it? And why fiat money keep coming back like a bad headache, is it? Gold is ace as money, that's why everyone always leaves it in vaults the first chance they get and wanders around with promissory notes instead, eh? Oh, add the bit about gold being for about 5% of the population, silver for 15-20% and everyone else on whatever happens to be the du jour.

There'll be more, but here it is.

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Okidoki

First of all, intrinsic value.

There is no such thing as intrinsic value. All such values are a human opinion about objects, that is they reside in the human mind, not in the objects themselves. They can go up, down, sideways. They can disappear entirely.

I think the first thing we need to decide on in this discussion is what level of reality we believe to be actual. You can take an object and devalue it because you claim the value is only an opinion in a human mind. But you could also take the object and say it doesnt really exist at all because the world is an illusion created in the mind. Does the person with the opinion really exist at all?

So first question, are we assuming the physical world is a real tangible place and that economies are functioning means of exchange, or are we taking the buddhist / quantum physics approach and saying the world is an illusion? If we take the latter, the discussion will go in a quite different direction.

I think we need to set the paramenters so we can stay within them in the discussion.

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I think the first thing we need to decide on in this discussion is what level of reality we believe to be actual. You can take an object and devalue it because you claim the value is only an opinion in a human mind. But you could also take the object and say it doesnt really exist at all because the world is an illusion created in the mind. Does the person with the opinion really exist at all?

So first question, are we assuming the physical world is a real tangible place and that economies are functioning means of exchange, or are we taking the buddhist / quantum physics approach and saying the world is an illusion? If we take the latter, the discussion will go in a quite different direction.

I think we need to set the paramenters so we can stay within them in the discussion.

We are talking day to day, humdrum reality.

Objects have no value in and of themselves, we have value for objects.

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''We have a market. A free market. ''

Hmm that's a load of rubbish for a start. There is no free market, look at how house prices are being kept artificially high, and how interest rates are being kept artificially low.

Rubbish thread, with rubbish arguments.

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''We have a market. A free market. ''

Hmm that's a load of rubbish for a start. There is no free market, look at how house prices are being kept artificially high, and how interest rates are being kept artificially low.

Rubbish thread, with rubbish arguments.

Shite reading comprehension.

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We are talking day to day, humdrum reality.

Objects have no value in and of themselves, we have value for objects.

So what you are saying here, is that if an object is floating in space, like earth, it has no value unless people are upon it and ascribe a value to certain objects. So lets first establish that humans are on the earth, they do 'need things' to live and the importance of those things to the humans gives them 'value'.

Can we establish that? Yes or no?

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Shite reading comprehension.

Go back and read the nonsense that you have written, then go somewhere quite and think about it.

You will then realise the rubbish of what you are saying. Obviously you haven't a clue.

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So what you are saying here, is that if an object is floating in space, like earth, it has no value unless people are upon it and ascribe a value to certain objects. So lets first establish that humans are on the earth, they do 'need things' to live and the importance of those things to the humans gives them 'value'.

Can we establish that? Yes or no?

Right, value is a property of the mind.

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Shite reading comprehension.

Go back and read the nonsense that you have written, then go somewhere quite and think about it.

You will then realise the rubbish of what you are saying. Obviously you haven't a clue.

Again, shite reading comprehension.

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Again, shite reading comprehension.

It's your arguments that are shit.

Go explain the bit about free markets if you can? How are they free?

You obviously haven't a clue and are just trying to appear clever - but you are making a fool of yourself.

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Again, shite reading comprehension.

It's your arguments that are shit.

Go explain the bit about free markets if you can? How are they free?

You obviously haven't a clue and are just trying to appear clever - but you are making a fool of yourself.

He's not saying that markets are free. He's saying that they need to be free in order to discover his definition of money.

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hpwatcher, you need to calm down and actually go back and re-read the op before you embarrass yourself anymore :rolleyes:

How do we find out what money is?

We have a market. A free market. Then we let people trade amongst themselves.

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He's not saying that markets are free. He's saying that they need to be free in order to discover his definition of money.

But Gold was used when there was a free market. The free market chooses gold every time. Because politicians can't tamper with it to buy votes and pay their enemies.

There simply needs to be some form of wealth that can be transferred. It's can't be currencies, so it has to be gold.

Moreover gold has many, many industrial applications.

This post is complete rubbish.

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Again, shite reading comprehension.

It's your arguments that are shit.

Go explain the bit about free markets if you can? How are they free?

You obviously haven't a clue and are just trying to appear clever - but you are making a fool of yourself.

Nowhere did I say markets are free.

Leran to read.

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Right, value is a property of the mind.

So you have agreed we are talking about real world economics in our existential reality, and that people attribute value based on subjective perception.

So as long as the majority attribute 'value' to something, it can be generally accepted in our paradigm to have that 'value'.

Yes or no?

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So you have agreed we are talking about real world economics in our existential reality, and that people attribute value based on subjective perception.

So as long as the majority attribute 'value' to something, it can be generally accepted in our paradigm to have that 'value'.

Yes or no?

Yes, exactly, there is no such thing as a store of value.

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Yes, exactly, there is no such thing as a store of value.

If things are perceived to be valuable, and they can be stored, they are stored value by definition are they not?

If you value wheat. And you have some spare. And you put it to one side, knowing you will need it in a week. You are storing its value no? Because it saves you having to go and work for wheat in a week.

Yes or no?

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If things are perceived to be valuable, and they can be stored, they are stored value by definition are they not?

No.

If you value wheat. And you have some spare. And you put it to one side, knowing you will need it in a week. You are storing its value no? Because it saves you having to go and work for wheat in a week.

No, because you can change your mind.

Yes or no?

No.

Value is inside your head, it is not inside objects.

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No, because you can change your mind.

No.

Value is inside your head, it is not inside objects.

I waited all this time for that.... You can change your mind.. how feckin lame..

.

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No, because you can change your mind.

No.

Value is inside your head, it is not inside objects.

I waited all this time for that.... You can change your mind.. how feckin lame..

.

Everyones a critic.

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Everyones a critic.

I was genuinely interested in what your response was going to be, up to now I have valued your posts as part of a balanced

argument, but for the love of God....... you can change your mind.

I often use this with friends who don't get tangable assets.. we are going to travel forward in time in the blink of an eye which would you rather take with you, a twenty pound note or a silver coin?

BTW Im not all in PM's.

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I was genuinely interested in what your response was going to be, up to now I have valued your posts as part of a balanced

argument, but for the love of God....... you can change your mind.

I often use this with friends who don't get tangable assets.. we are going to travel forward in time in the blink of an eye which would you rather take with you, a twenty pound note or a silver coin?

BTW Im not all in PM's.

I'd rather have the ability to think rationally, if it's all the same to you.

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Okidoki

[

Fourth, Gold is money.

No, it isn't. Money is the most commonly traded item in an economy. If you are in prison, this will be ciggies, porn or drugs. If you are in a farming commuity, it'll be some form of crop. Something with universal value, high in natural demand, easily divisible and tradable. Not that gold is worthless to people, of course it isn't. it just is too scarce to function as money. History shows this, gold is for kings, silver for nobles, copper for peasants, debt for slaves goes the quote.

How do we find out what money is?

We have a market. A free market. Then we let people trade amongst themselves. Eventually the most commonly traded item will appear. That's money. This is a process, one which no one gets to short cut by imposing their will on everyone else.

Fifth, Gold is chosen by all people at all times as money?

That's why theres fiat bloody money everywhere is it? And why fiat money keep coming back like a bad headache, is it? Gold is ace as money, that's why everyone always leaves it in vaults the first chance they get and wanders around with promissory notes instead, eh? Oh, add the bit about gold being for about 5% of the population, silver for 15-20% and everyone else on whatever happens to be the du jour.

There'll be more, but here it is.

Agree with your first 3 points.

You are wrong on Point 4 in that Gold is not Money. It is indeed International money.

Why does money have to be "the most commonly traded item in an economy"?

We have a free market you say? Well it maybe "free" but to only a very few.

Point 5, Gold is chosen by all people at all times as money. Never heard that one before and pointless.

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