Injin Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 ...and they'd be right. If you're an uneducated couple, late teens and no hope, you'd be mad not to knock out a kid every three years and let everyone else pay. Obviously the girl doesn't name the father(s) but they'll do alright. Erm he's talking about bankers, politicians and their assorted hangers on I believe. It's only worth doing the behaviours you outline because the rents and taxes that are ultimately funnelled to bankers and statists are so high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishbone Glover Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Erm he's talking about bankers, politicians and their assorted hangers on I believe. It's only worth doing the behaviours you outline because the rents and taxes that are ultimately funnelled to bankers and statists are so high. Actually they're both right. The problem that we're facing is parasites and hanger's on at both ends of the spectrum - the workshy chavs and the bankers politicians etc. If it wasn't for both these groups, the average person could be taking things a little bit easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easy2012 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 defaults don't destroy any money. They destroy the assets of the lender but not his liabilities. liabilities (of the banking system and the government) are money. therein of course lies the problem we face. Until the bank defaults on the bank credits that it created and zeros all the accounts.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scepticus Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 There's quite a bit of that I disagree with. First: data is not, has never been, and can never be valuable.. data is information. stuff that is not information is noise. . Information can be valuable, but only if it is relevant. relevance is in the eye of the beholder. Take the money supply and public debt statistics. Are they relevant? To what? Tea party nutters ascribe a very different relevance to those numbers than Paul Krugman does. Since there is no objective measure of relevance all data must be created equal. High bandwidth connectivity enhances our ability to exchange information... but this is a double-edged sword, in more ways than one. One problem is that information is destroyed once successfully conveyed - rather like transferring charge eliminates potential difference with electricity. Another problem is that relevant information is a weapon to establish or undermine a right... and technology doesn't care which. Yet another problem is that ever higher bandwidth links promote data transmissions that are ever less information rich.. and, eventually (maybe this has already happened) increased bandwidth simply results in less value, on average, in each communication. Information is destroyed? I don't think so. A TV broadcast signal does not destroy the recording from which is was originated. In physics, information appears to be conserved - although there are ongoing arguments about whether information is destroyed by black holes and what happens at the cosmic horizon. I agree with the diminishing return to communication though. To communicate means simply that two entities have more in common after a communication than before, and thus less need to communicate further in future, Higher speed comms simply diminish the total divergence between entities that might accumulate - the divergence could never be eliminated except with infinitely fast communication - a bit like you can't if you have mass actually attain the speed of light but can spend infinitely large amounts of effort trying. And there are advantages to the traveller in getting close to the speed of light - namely taking advantage of time dilation. I don't see why a similar principle can't hold for communication between entities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R K Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Best wrong idea anyone ever had? it's so plausible until you think about it! But no. Value is in the trading, not the effort. It covers that too. Hence why I posted it and left you to decide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scepticus Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Woops. Yes, agreed a default will only impact the lender's assets (loan book.) Your correction makes me wonder just when is money destroyed? Apart from extreme cases like burning cash or a currency failure, I can't see an obvious answer. Any ideas anyone? base money (electronic currency) can only be destroyed or created by the central bank, when it shrinks its balance sheet. broad money (zero maturity bank debt) is destroyed by loan repayment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 base money (electronic currency) can only be destroyed or created by the central bank, when it shrinks its balance sheet. base money si paper legal tender and coins. broad money (zero maturity bank debt) is destroyed by loan repayment. No, it doubles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scepticus Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 base money si paper legal tender and coins. No, it doubles. How nice, QuietGuy gets a choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 How nice, QuietGuy gets a choice. Facts remain. One of us should probably stop, this is the mechanism psychopaths use to confuse their victims. One truth, one completely opposite falsehood and people assume the truth is in the middle. From there, the gap is opened up by persistence. Still, i'll say you can go and askm, check the facts, look for empiricism. This will confirm i am correct. Heres what you do. Put some money in the bank, then take it out. notice how it doesn't vanish. Ta da! Sceppy is wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda Posted October 25, 2011 Author Share Posted October 25, 2011 This is the position of classical economics. It was overturned by Carl Menger in the late 1870's, the first of the Austrian economists. He proved that value does not exist outside the human mind: http://mises.org/daily/1349 Your friend has his finger on the pulse of developments in economic theory I see. So how do you value 1 unit of human effort, what metric is out there common across varying effort types? Where stands a link between 1 unit of human effort equals 1% of a certain asset class......In a standalone economy, but wait there is no such thing as a stand alone econmy, the slaves in China give us our cheap cr@p, while we trade our over priced expensive cr@p. Yet our expensive cr@p is more out of sync with our domestic 1 unit of effort, and is more in sync with the slaves in China 1 unit of human effort? Value maybe in the mind, but the effort to obtain anything you value is not in the mind, its pretty real getting up at 5am to get to London for 7.30am, then work for 8 hours, back home if you are lucky for 6.30pm, just in time to warm your meal for one in the radiation application, then its shower, bed, ready for round two and on and on..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waitingscot Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 (edited) It took a quiet chat with a septuagenarian to get you in touch with the obvious? Perhaps you need more sermons than you realise. Its this very point that is the source of my reasoning that we are heading for the mother of all deflation. Yes they can print a lot of money but they can't make it fly (give it "velocity"). What do you know I was wrong. Edited October 25, 2011 by waitingscot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
okaycuckoo Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 ..this does not stand up to the issue of the 'Protestant work ethic' ..and when migrated across the Atlantic to the new world of North America...the very foundation of the United States and it's Capitalism was built on the back of the Puritan and Presbyterian spirit... Initially the puritan spirit was communist and utopian. The first settlers almost starved and had to go back to step 1 and rethink everything. So I'm not really sure what the protestant work ethic is or whether it's relevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda Posted October 25, 2011 Author Share Posted October 25, 2011 What do you know I was wrong. No i can see his point, you can print and print and print, if it sits and sits and sits, no movement, no velocity. The printing has not kick started the credit fest, because the 200 plus billion is not being lent out.........When and if it does, well thats another story. Merv sat on the telly the other week, he said along the lines, we are printing up another load of cash and will exchange this in the open market with financial instruments from financial organsations and banks and threy can spend the money on what they like......The money they recieve can be spent on 75 billion toffee chews if they wish. For me this is jaw boning, he know's full well this will not be the case, but he wants you to think, hey hang on, i better spend some of my inflated away cash, before it becomes worthless, he is printing to oblivion, jeez, there is too much dormant cash sitting in savings accounts, he wants you out of cash. When you spend velocity kicks in, with credit, the tap has tightened, domestic savings need to replace credit to create velocity. They can then increase their tax take on the spent savings........then, but yes costs are rising mainly due to the trashed currency, imported costs, this is inflationary, very, and is killing the buying power of you cash savings/salary/wage et al..........But he thinks its a price worth paying, we will see.................But i do think velocity is something he is either controlling or closely watching.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saving For a Space Ship Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Theres nowt wrong with speculation and gambling - if it's your own money you are using. Unless you are addicted to speculation and gambling, or in denial of that addiction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saving For a Space Ship Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Theres nowt wrong with speculation and gambling - if it's your own money you are using. Unless you are addicted to speculation and gambling, or in denial of that addiction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Lorne Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 (edited) Initially the puritan spirit was communist and utopian. The first settlers almost starved and had to go back to step 1 and rethink everything. So I'm not really sure what the protestant work ethic is or whether it's relevant. ..try googling it and learn something ...puritans were the early settlers in the 17th century and made their mark despite your negative interpretation ...the protestant presbyterians arrived in the 18th century many from Scotland and were behind the Independence movement which built the country on capitalist foundations.... Edited October 25, 2011 by South Lorne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBingo Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Taking these points in reverse order. what metric is out there common across varying effort types? There is none, that's why you can't find it, it does not exist. So how do you value 1 unit of human effort, You don't that's precisely my point. If a man works all day to paint a wall, you don't pay him 1 standard units worth, and if a footballer plays for 90 minutes you don't pay him 1/16 of that unit. So stop trying to look for something that does not exist (except in the human mind). Its very simple, you pay what your willing to based on whatever value exists in your own mind. It really is that simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBingo Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Value maybe in the mind, but the effort to obtain anything you value is not in the mind And? What on earth has that got to do with achieving that value. If you want an extension built and one builder tells you he really struggles to build anything and it will take him months, and another tells you he does them all the time and has got them down to a fine art your hardly going to pay the former more. You seem to be confusing yourself about a concept that does not exist, but then again you were in church so I can see the connection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda Posted October 26, 2011 Author Share Posted October 26, 2011 (edited) You seem to be confusing yourself about a concept that does not exist, but then again you were in church so I can see the connection. That's funny......................The church was there, not sure about the whole concept though; but are we really here, or is it just a flash in time where we waste worrying valuable time about something which does not really matter because when we are gone we are gone...........................for ever! Edited October 26, 2011 by Panda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Lorne Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 ...not sure about the whole concept though; but are we really here, or is it just a flash in time.... ...we are just changing platforms....except we are dealing not in trains but dimensions.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fool's Gold Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Went to church today, and no, I am agnostic, I went just to see what "believers" get......I feel as though I am not right nor wrong, but willing not to "dismiss".......... Anyway, got talking to a retired gent, clever guy, post 70, treats the church as a retreat, socialising, but is well read, well I get that feeling...........................He went on, one of his statements, any thoughts? "Money/Cash reward is a reflection of human effort, and any artefact/asset value is a reflection of the amount of human effort willing to gain that artefact/asset, through the cash reward. Where the cash reward is not great enough to gain the artefact/asset, then the same artefact/asset will not hold its value, because at the end of the day the debtor must pay the creditor, and where demand falls, then the credit created will destruct, as the debt required to accumulate the artefact/asset will fall, as the effort is seen as too much with little gain.......................... I don't understand how anyone can be described as 'clever' if they attend a place where fairy stories are peddled as truth or, worst still, that they believe in them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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