Number79

Gold Vigilantes, All Required, No Ebay Scams

77 posts in this topic

We all see them, bent coins, cast sovs, chinese copies, assholes with father just died stories, coins that dont weight right etc etc

The more experience that you have dealing with gold and silver coins then the less likely that it is that you will accept a dudd.

If you have a coin that you arent sure about then post the pics here and I will let you know. I specialialise in sovs mostly but know most coins and know people that can spot anything.

MOST IMPORTANTLY IF YOU SPOT AN EBAY LISTING THAT IS NOT RIGHT THEN POST IT HERE..

IF YOU SEE CHINESE COINS WITH NO DENOMINATION THEN LIST THE ITEM NUMBER HERE

Be careful of slabbed coins, the chinese do a very good line in pcgs and ngc packs.

WHEN WE SEE SELLERS TAKING THE MICHAEL WITH DAFT PRICES THEN POST THE LISTING HERE SO THAT WE CAN ALL PASS COMMENT,

Lets take it to feebay and kill off the assholes and scammers.

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PM sales will always attract scammers due to the sums of money involved; every little helps though!

yep but not so many can spot them from a picture as others can

I want to help buyers just as much as I want assholes to be inundated with messages about daft prices.

There isnt a coin that I cant find out about and that is my guarantee and challenge.

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yep but not so many can spot them from a picture as others can

I want to help buyers just as much as I want assholes to be inundated with messages about daft prices.

There isnt a coin that I cant find out about and that is my guarantee and challenge.

I would hope that reputable sellers will have good feedback ratings for other gold they have sold. If not, then it is up to the individual to take the risk.

But why pay pretty much the same amount on ebay when you get it for the same price from reputable dealers?

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Interesting thread, can certainly contribute with regards to Krugerrands.

So far I've not had a dud, or at least haven't been able to detect one. Detected many dodgy looking eBay auctions though :lol:

My only worry is cored tungsten, however I've not seen or heard of any coins yet. Be interested to know what could be used to detect one of these, ultrasound maybe?

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It's very difficult to detect tungsten cores non-destructively. The machines cost a very large sum of money. The only quick way is to melt or cut the bar. You either get an obvious sandwich effect or lumps of tungsten floating in a golden soup. Bit problematic with numismatic coins, which of course is where the Chinese win out. I have never bought a Panda gold or silver coin for that reason.

Be wary of any coins that look too marked or scratched, as well. The Chinese fakes are often "aged" but they can't easily mimic the gentle, long-term rubbing of genuine age or patina. Multiple deep scratches are often a bad sign - and don't do much for the long-term numismatic value, either.

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Thought I'd do some research in town at the cash4gold joint and also the local jeweller. Took in a couple of Krugerrands to see what I could get for them and also what testing would be done to check authenticity.

The cash4gold joint would give me £900 each, but once he checked the coins that amount dropped to £885 for one of them. Apparently the gizmo he used (XRF Analyzer), which he admitted wasn't calibrated, told him one of the coins was only 90% Gold. He claimed the other one was spot on.

The Jeweller offered me £860 each and wouldn't even match the other guys £900. This guys method of testing was simply a scale. After I explained what the cash4gold guy said he just commented that nobody would fake a coin with 90% Gold. Other that looking at the coin afterwards with his eyeglass he did no further testing or measuring.

For reference this mornings fix was £949. Krugerrands are 22kt Gold (91.67% Gold). I checked the coins myself and both were the correct weight, size and rang like a bell.

Not sure if the XL2 device is any good or not but it occurred to me that shifting a tungsten cored coin via a Jewellers would be a piece of piss.

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Tungsten krugs dont ring.

They do fool jewellers and coin dealers, I know this.

Only know of one tungsten krug but expect to hear of many more.

Know of chinese sellers knocking out coins pretty close to weight.

Seen chinese fakes in very good slabs.

I see ;ots of bent coins on feebay and would have thought that there would have been more interest here. Is it that most hpc'ers dont buy on feebay or we just see it as buyers risk and tough tits?

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Tungsten krugs dont ring.

They do fool jewellers and coin dealers, I know this.

Only know of one tungsten krug but expect to hear of many more.

Know of chinese sellers knocking out coins pretty close to weight.

Seen chinese fakes in very good slabs.

I see ;ots of bent coins on feebay and would have thought that there would have been more interest here. Is it that most hpc'ers dont buy on feebay or we just see it as buyers risk and tough tits?

Very Interesting. Neither place I took the coins to performed the ring test. It is something I always do, but more so because I like to hear the ring. Do the Tungsten coins ring differently or not at all like a Maple? Ironic really that the very basic of test would appear to the the best way to check for the most advanced counterfeit.

Do you have first hand knowledge of this Tungsten Krugerrand? I would be very interested to hear more about it. If there's one out there then odds are there's another million that came off the same production line in China.

Like you, I thought there would be more interest in this subject. I've bought from all over the place in the past, my reason being simple, if I cannot authenticate something myself then I'm screwed and left trusting someone else, which is no good at all. The best weapon is knowledge, which is why I'm always keen to acquire more of it from people more knowledgeable than myself.

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Tbh it is why I prefer sovs as they are so small they are going to be harder to stick tungsten cores in them.

In fact how do you do the ring test on gold? I can usually get a nice ping from my silver by sticking it in a plastic bag and hitting it with a hammer, but I don't want to do this with me gold! .925, .999 and .5 silver all sound very slightly different.

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Tbh it is why I prefer sovs as they are so small they are going to be harder to stick tungsten cores in them.

In fact how do you do the ring test on gold? I can usually get a nice ping from my silver by sticking it in a plastic bag and hitting it with a hammer, but I don't want to do this with me gold! .925, .999 and .5 silver all sound very slightly different.

Nothing too exotic with me, just balance a coin on one finger and tap it with a pencil, the harder it's tapped the longer it rings.

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I dont have first hand with the fake krug.

There was a poster here that asked me about a krug that he thought looked slightly different to his others so I told him how to do the ring test.

He couldnt get it to ring, there was just a dull thud.

He mailed me to say that he took it back to the long established coin dealer that he bought it from who checked and weighed it and said it was fine. The poster told him about the ring test and the dealer tried but only got a thud unlike the ring from his other krugs.

The dealer cut it in half and the krug had some sort of greyish center. I never found out what it was, whether it was a slug or powder mix but am assuming that it had to be tungsten. If the coin was good enough to fool a guy that has been handling gold for so many years and makes a living from coins then it must have been good.

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Cheers for the information, a gooey centre of Tungsten is the last thing one wants :huh:

Looking on the net for examples always comes up blank, it's discussed quite a lot but I've yet to see a picture or video of a cored coin.

The only one I've seen is the cored bar found in Germany, but the YouTube video for this is sketchy at best.

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likewise, I would have liked to see a picture.

I have kept an eye out for a fake krug that weighs right although not found one yet. There are a couple of chinese sellers that have fake krugs but I have yet to find out what they weigh.

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You can buy a Fisch coin detector on eBay for about £100.00. One model will do both Gold Eagles and Krugerrands. Given the value these have now reached it's probably worth investing in one if you have a stash.

I take comfort in the fact that my phizz was bought mainly in 2005/2006 before the incentive for forgery became so compelling.

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To add complications though I have also come across fake fisch detectors :lol:

I think that if you dont buy anything from china or a seller that has any feedback from chinese sellers then you do limit the greatest risks.

It always makes me wince seeing what people pay for those chinese silver bars or tibeten silver (tin and nickel). I used to contact buyers and bidders and warn them about fakes and scams but feebay removed that facility. Feebay are complicit in a lot of this and are only concerned with their own revenue, they are probably the biggest fence in the world and entirely legal somehow.

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Do Fisch detectors have any advantage, other than convenience, over calipers, micrometers, and milligram balances for doing the weight/size/density test?

I assume any decent fake will pass all the size/weight/density tests, will ring properly, and will have to top 0.1mm (whatever depth XRF testing can penetrate) of the proper composition.

I wonder if it's possible for fakes to also have the proper magnetic and electrical properties (diamagnetism/bulk resistivity, etc.), as well. These are not so easy to measure at home, though.

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Do Fisch detectors have any advantage, other than convenience, over calipers, micrometers, and milligram balances for doing the weight/size/density test?

I assume any decent fake will pass all the size/weight/density tests, will ring properly, and will have to top 0.1mm (whatever depth XRF testing can penetrate) of the proper composition.

I wonder if it's possible for fakes to also have the proper magnetic and electrical properties (diamagnetism/bulk resistivity, etc.), as well. These are not so easy to measure at home, though.

Been wondering if an Ultrasonic Thickness Gauge would be any use for testing purposes? Never used one myself but the theory behind them looks good.

In a SHTF environment testing won't be an issue, if Gold is $10,000 an ounce people will be more concerned with the Gold content than keeping a coin as a coin, so they'll be cut - no way to fool that.

We are not there yet though, so any means of making sure stuff is 100% legit is more than welcome...

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Been wondering if an Ultrasonic Thickness Gauge would be any use for testing purposes? Never used one myself but the theory behind them looks good.

...

My first job was as a quality control technicial in a steelworks, and I have used an ultrasonic probe to test for imperfections within steel rods and wire etc. I reckon they should be able to detect the interface between gold plate over tungsten quite easily - if the probe can get a good surface contact. This should be easily achievable on smooth ingots and bars, but problematical on knobbly surfaces such as on coins.

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To add complications though I have also come across fake fisch detectors :lol:

I think that if you dont buy anything from china or a seller that has any feedback from chinese sellers then you do limit the greatest risks.

It always makes me wince seeing what people pay for those chinese silver bars or tibeten silver (tin and nickel). I used to contact buyers and bidders and warn them about fakes and scams but feebay removed that facility. Feebay are complicit in a lot of this and are only concerned with their own revenue they are probably the biggest fence in the world and entirely legal somehow.

Yes Pay pal are complicit in all the scams too but will always take the moral high ground and tell you everything is being done to minimise fraud...One such scam is for a buyer to ask for refund as the coin/bar/whatever is of poor quality, then send crap back to an adress in the sellers same road with the house number bearing only one real digit and removing the other on the proof of posting when scanning it to send as proof of postage to Paypal when you the seller states it never arrived back !!I lost £600.. now will never use E Bay or Paypal.

This is where many post saying paypal is fine and have used `em for years..... it ok till it isn`t.

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But why pay pretty much the same amount on ebay when you get it for the same price from reputable dealers?

My sentiment as well. I think it's better to build a good trading relationship with respected bullion dealers.

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Yes Pay pal are complicit in all the scams too but will always take the moral high ground and tell you everything is being done to minimise fraud...One such scam is for a buyer to ask for refund as the coin/bar/whatever is of poor quality, then send crap back to an adress in the sellers same road with the house number bearing only one real digit and removing the other on the proof of posting when scanning it to send as proof of postage to Paypal when you the seller states it never arrived back !!I lost £600.. now will never use E Bay or Paypal.

This is where many post saying paypal is fine and have used `em for years..... it ok till it isn`t.

The eBay dispute system is too hard and fast when it comes to refunds. Basically once you sign for a return package they'll refund the money to the buyer, even if he posted you back a pebble. You have no way to get this money back once it is refunded other than through the court system, but you have no real evidence to achieve this.

Buyers are better protected, if PayPal doesn't play ball your credit card company will take the money back for you.

Selling on eBay is fine if you indicate on the listing you are willing to negotiate a buy-it-now price for cash. There's plenty of buyers out there looking for a cash transaction and no paper trail. Meet somewhere public, check coin, slide money across table, job done, el governmente is none the wiser, plus no addresses have been exchanged either.

Actually thinking about the forced PayPal refund, if your PayPal account is empty then PayPal will have to take the money from your registered credit card (I assume), in which case the credit card company should fight your corner. Not sure what would happen in this situation. Maybe the credit card company ends up shouldering the loss? Maybe PayPal sue you in court?

I only tend to buy small bits and pieces off eBay these days, but I keep an eye out for bullion and bookmark the dodgy looking listings, the number of these that go 'item removed' a few weeks later is quite high. eBay used to have a 10 feedback minimum before you could start selling, now I believe it's 0. The number of newly registered accounts selling a 1oz piece of Gold is quite alarming, to root out the genuine ones simply ask the seller if they accept cash on collection, if some ******** excuse comes back about them being robbed once then you know they are full of shit.

Another problem with buying via eBay is the hidden seller address - if you are going to pony over a pile of money then it is kind of nice to know who you are actually handing it over to. eBay has four different addresses that the seller can use, home address, payment address, postage address and return address. The payment address is the one eBay partially displays when you win an item and the seller can stick anything they like in this.

Caveat emptor. Know what you are buying and know who you are buying it from. Also don't think that just because it comes from a reputable dealer it is legit. Develop the skills and knowledge needed to check everything for yourself, after all, you are the last line of defence.

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So, what do we reckon to these suspicioulsy cheap silver 'layered' maple bars on ebay?

My link

1 Troy Oz Maple Leaf, 100 Mills .999 Silver Layered Art Bar

This bar is high quality in a plastic case

If you have any questions, please ask.

Going for <£20.

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So, what do we reckon to these suspicioulsy cheap silver 'layered' maple bars on ebay?

If you have any questions, please ask.[/i]

Going for <£20.

ebay's always had these reproductions in the bullion section. They're just a way of misleading people who don't read the listing carefully enough.

What unit is a "mill" if it's millimetres then 100 is very thick plating!

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So, what do we reckon to these suspicioulsy cheap silver 'layered' maple bars on ebay?

Going for <£20.

They are worthless crap, and they sell on the back of real silver and peoples ignorance.. <_<

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