Tuition Fees

[wonderpup]

So, it's money to banks at .5% and student loans at 3.5%? The moral of this tale is f*uck up bigtime and you will prosper- try to do the right thing and you will be screwed.

Did I enter the twilight zone at some point- a crazy world of moral inversion- like in the star trek episode where spock has a beard?

[The Mighty Douche]

There's an extra nasty tax that is screwing over the young (males) in particular, and it affects more of them than tuition fees ever will.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11526311

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11516195

Edited October 12, 2010 by The Mighty Douche

[tim123]

A few universities on the continent teach their courses in English. An old schoolfriend did a four year Jazz degree in Rotterdam - all in English.

I suspect the OU will grow exponentially over the next few years. It provides excellent resources, which is very affordable (you can do a degree for £4k), is highly regarded (I believe its in the top 15% of universities) and grads are highly sought after..

Hopefully there will also be the return of technical colleges...

Most courses in Scandinavia are in English and I think that EU citizens can study there for free

[Mancghirl]

Most courses in Scandinavia are in English and I think that EU citizens can study there for free

True. Worth looking into for any parents with teenage children considering University.

Fees also very cheap in Czech Republic - Charles University, Prague would be a nice place to be for a few years. Cheap living costs, too.

[libspero]

I could see this policy having the following effects:

Fewer people (both rich and poor) will participate in higher education. Anyone not academically gifted would rightly consider the risks and would probably decide it's not worth the gamble.

With fewer people going to university the qualification will become more valuable again, meaning those that do take the risk will have a better chance of finding a good job once they graduate.

Universities will be forced to streamline. Once people are paying serious money for their education they will demand decent teaching/skills that employers really want.. and at the lowest price possible.

More people will go abroad for higher education, which actually is probably a good thing.

[OnionTerror]

On the CH4 prog, a student dared to suggest the degree course could be condensed to a year (I think that's what she said). One of the chancellors strongly disagreed. Why?...........could it be because his revenue might be cut to a quarter?

They talk of a 'national 'debate' over this. We can be sure there won't be. The fact the above suggestion wasn't explored further is proof.

I think if you treated study as a 9-5 job then it probably could be done in a year. I've always thought that there were long breaks partially for the students to earn money during their studies & to allow academia to carry out research...

Harrods are doing their own 2 year degree. As more & more private companies get involved in delivering degrees, I'm sure it will be entirely possibly to do a degree in a year or two.

Interesting about Scandinavia - I didn't know that...

[Mancghirl]

Interesting about Scandinavia - I didn't know that...

http://www.studyinsweden.se/

is a helpful site.

[Game_Over]

Things are tough at the moment but generally there's usually decent oportunities out there for bright, motivated A-level students.

And if you're not bright and motivated what's the point in taking on £40,000 debt so that you can get a job in a call centre afterwards.

Depends on circumstances, if you're living with parents and pick up a half decent starting job then it should be pretty easy to get up to say £25k salary after 3 years, we're only talking about saving £250 per month here.

Even if you spend it all on booze and partying you're still £40k + interest better off.

My daughter has just started A levels

Can you give any examples of the decent opportunities available for A level students who don't go to Uni?

[Game_Over]

I could see this policy having the following effects:

Fewer people (both rich and poor) will participate in higher education. Anyone not academically gifted would rightly consider the risks and would probably decide it's not worth the gamble.

With fewer people going to university the qualification will become more valuable again, meaning those that do take the risk will have a better chance of finding a good job once they graduate.

Universities will be forced to streamline. Once people are paying serious money for their education they will demand decent teaching/skills that employers really want.. and at the lowest price possible.

More people will go abroad for higher education, which actually is probably a good thing.

Personally I don't think the people running universities have really thought through the long term effects of this policy

At the moment they are still in the 'Oooh more money phase'

I don't think they've worked out that in a few years time half of them will be out of a job

[Mancghirl]

My daughter has just started A levels

Can you give any examples of the decent opportunities available for A level students who don't go to Uni?

http://www.pwc.com/uk/en/careers/student/head-start.jhtml

Big accountancy firms still recruit from bright A level students. Armed forces?

[cells]

My daughter has just started A levels

Can you give any examples of the decent opportunities available for A level students who don't go to Uni?

There are few however there are also few opportunities for this leaving university. The only way someone in that situation can get a good leg up is if the parents have good connections tu get them into a reasonable job or better yet help them start their own business.

I wish I had that at 18 instead of going to university. I would be some 400k in the bank better off had I started my business aged 18 instead of 24.

Only go to university if you really wavy to follow a profession that 100% required it. Eg doctor teacher dentist academic....

The other 95% should not go to university. But because they do it ******s everything up for everyone. Now you see retail staff with good degrees from decent universities selling trinkets.

[Game_Over]

http://www.pwc.com/uk/en/careers/student/head-start.jhtml

Big accountancy firms still recruit from bright A level students. Armed forces?

Thought about the police or the armed forces but she is only 5ft 2 and 6.5 stones

And I don't want her to get killed or badly injured

She is doing Maths but unfortunately she finds it hard to sit still for more than about half an hour

so I think accountancy would 'do her head in'

Will have a look at the link though

Thanks

[Game_Over]

There are few however there are also few opportunities for this leaving university. The only way someone in that situation can get a good leg up is if the parents have good connections tu get them into a reasonable job or better yet help them start their own business.

I wish I had that at 18 instead of going to university. I would be some 400k in the bank better off had I started my business aged 18 instead of 24.

Only go to university if you really wavy to follow a profession that 100% required it. Eg doctor teacher dentist academic....

The other 95% should not go to university. But because they do it ******s everything up for everyone. Now you see retail staff with good degrees from decent universities selling trinkets.

So its catch 22 then

You need a degree to get even a menial job

otherwise its competing with the unemployed of eastern europe for 50-60 hrs a week on minimum wage gutting chickens

The elephant in the room with all these policies is that unless migration is controlled all these people who don't go to uni, are made redundant from the public sector or who are going to be taken off benefits are just going to end up unemployed for the next 10 years IMHO

[cells]

Personally I don't think the people running universities have really thought through the long term effects of this policy

At the moment they are still in the 'Oooh more money phase'

I don't think they've worked out that in a few years time half of them will be out of a job

you are both wrong. University numbers wtll not drop much at all because.there is no real price signal.

You may know the value of 7k times by 3 to 4 years plus other costs plus lost income however a 17 year old has no understanding of the sums. 7k is the same as 3k for all intents. How's a kid who has not had more than a tener in his pocket meant to make an informed decision? Plus they don't even have a choice. The option is not to go university and live with mum and dad bitching at you being "lazy" fur not getting a job or just go to university and hope hope.hope. well the kids understandable chose hope over being unemployed and slaged off.

[cells]

So its catch 22 then

You need a degree to get even a menial job

otherwise its competing with the unemployed of eastern europe for 50-60 hrs a week on minimum wage gutting chickens

The elephant in the room with all these policies is that unless migration is controlled all these people who don't go to uni, are made redundant from the public sector or who are going to be taken off benefits are just going to end up unemployed for the next 10 years IMHO

I don't think you fully understand. Yes the prospects for an 18 year old are very shit however those for a 21 year old student with a degree are just a tiny bit better but still very shit.

So you either have shit prospects or shit prospects with 40k of debt.

For most getting any sort of non frontline retail job at 18 would be better than going to university.

90% of kids shouldn't be going to university.

[Mancghirl]

Thought about the police or the armed forces but she is only 5ft 2 and 6.5 stones

And I don't want her to get killed or badly injured

She is doing Maths but unfortunately she finds it hard to sit still for more than about half an hour

so I think accountancy would 'do her head in'

Will have a look at the link though

Thanks

A lot of the police forces have put the minimum age up to 21 for new recruits. Can't think of any other options that are not office jobs, where sitting still for >30 mins is required!

[Guest The Relaxation Suite]

I think it's reached the point where university just isn't worth it anymore.

The idea that it will get you an extra £400k over your lifetime is basd on out of date figures when the top 5% went on to higher education and on to high flying carreers.

These days it seems that for all but the very few the possession of a degree is a marginal benefit at best in the job market and a distant second place to experience and ability.

It's not just the £40k debt that's the problem, it's the 3 years of lost earnings and 3 years of lost experience. Hooray, you've come out with a degree, but your classmate who left after A-levels has been working for the last 3 years and has £10k savings, makes more money than you and has spent the time learning stuff that is actually relevant to the job.

So thanks to Labour's insane attempt to extend participation to everyone it's likely that HE will become the exclusive preserve of the upper middle classes who can afford ot subsidise their kids plus the tiny fraction of the ultra poor who will qualify for free tuition and actually have the ability to write their own name.

The remaining 98% of us can forget about it.

Edit to say: This isn't a ConLib problem - this is a huge f*** up by the idiots who've spent the last 13 years driving the country into bankruptcy.

Totally agree with this, although my interpretation of Labour's HE policy was that it was just another part of their deliberate, concerted and successful attempt to destroy the middle class. The same motivation was behind uncontrolled house price inflation, wholesale MEWing, pensions destruction, etc.

[cells]

I have a system which is 100% fair for all and will cost little or nothing.

The universities bear the cost of the education (via loans if need be) however they then get a percentage of the students post tax income over the national average for the next 20 years.

So as an example let's say this tax is 20%.

If you go to university and do well you would get a good job. Say during the 20 years after you earn 300k mite than the average you would pay 60k in tax straight back to the university. If on the other hand your degree was useless and you work in Tesco stacking shelves you would pay nothing back ad your income.would be bellow the national average.

Universities say going means you will earn more later in life. Well then put your money where your propaganda is.

Students and parental Gould be for this as it means the time invested is only paid for if it doing better than the average at it was a benefit in belong run. The universities should be happy as they claim uni is so good and important and a benefit.

Of course this would probably mean 80% of unis go bust as the majority of uni students don't earn much if anything over the average wage.

Simple.

Eimplr

[peakbear]

You're very naughty. You're poor and you're bright. That's not allowed. The working classes are not suposed to have a decent education.

Don't you know that you're not allowed to compete against Tarquin - you don't know your place do you!

Scrapping fee caps is a delioberate move to REDUCE social mobility, no doubt about it.

The rich already have extra time in their exams - many cough up £500 for a dyslexia test for the rich, but dim offspring. But it's still not enough. Camoron wants to reserve Oxford and Cambridge for his well-bred, or should that be in-bred, chums.

Dogbrush and his fellow Thatcherites talk a good game on competition, but their actions don't match their words.

They're scared of competition...........because they're...........................lazy and stupid.

Britain ruled by Camoron - Tim nice, but dim.

Britain = game over.

Why do you think Dave would be against social mobility. The UK does have at least have some recent reputation of the brightest 'working class' being able to get a scholarship or equivalent at a good university. Obviously wealth will get you to certain places, but I don't think Prince Charles is recognised due to the brilliance of his Oxbridge education...

[Guest The Relaxation Suite]

I have a system which is 100% fair for all and will cost little or nothing.

The universities bear the cost of the education (via loans if need be) however they then get a percentage of the students post tax income over the national average for the next 20 years.

So as an example let's say this tax is 20%.

If you go to university and do well you would get a good job. Say during the 20 years after you earn 300k mite than the average you would pay 60k in tax straight back to the university. If on the other hand your degree was useless and you work in Tesco stacking shelves you would pay nothing back ad your income.would be bellow the national average.

Universities say going means you will earn more later in life. Well then put your money where your propaganda is.

Students and parental Gould be for this as it means the time invested is only paid for if it doing better than the average at it was a benefit in belong run. The universities should be happy as they claim uni is so good and important and a benefit.

Of course this would probably mean 80% of unis go bust as the majority of uni students don't earn much if anything over the average wage.

Simple.

Eimplr

Too risky. Many uni graduates are specialists in stuff like Jane Austen or Kirkegaard or Neo-Patrimonialism in Post-Soviet Afghanistan, etc. These people rare get good jobs, but what they know is important to a civilisation. All they can di is go into teaching, either at schools or unis, and neither of these options, as we all know, constitutes a good job, either in fiscsal remuneration or job satisfaction.

The only way it works is by having academic selection at 11 and again at 13 for those that are slow developers, and again at 15, and then have very high entrance requirements. This worked before but the socialists destroyed it.

[Arbitrage]

This is a great day for Tim, nice but dim. His thick kids will have a better chance of getting into a Russell Group university.

However, this policy will be terrible for the whole country

1. We'll lose international competitiveness against other countries that are based around a meritocracy. We need the top jobs in our country to be filled by those with the most talent. Reserving our best jobs for rich thick kids won't help us to compete

2. Clever, but poor kids will leave the UK. Why should they stay???? Cameron needs to think about this.

[IBlewItLastTime]

There is such drivel talked around this topic!

Newsnight tonight quotes the Social Market Foundation's wholey misleading claim that the middle classes will incur a greater financial charge.

Paxman is appalled that people might disregard university because it too expensive (so?).

The history guy thinks everyone should have the right to study as far as PHd in history without incurring debt, because its beneficial for society.

Crumbs. University is a luxury for those who are bright enough and are prepared to work hard without getting paid in the hope that it will pay off in the long run.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but this sector needs a shake-up - there are far too many sacred cows.

[cells]

So its catch 22 then

You need a degree to get even a menial job

otherwise its competing with the unemployed of eastern europe for 50-60 hrs a week on minimum wage gutting chickens

The elephant in the room with all these policies is that unless migration is controlled all these people who don't go to uni, are made redundant from the public sector or who are going to be taken off benefits are just going to end up unemployed for the next 10 years IMHO

It's not immigration at all imo

We are at a point in human economic evolution where growth and further prosperity will only come from services.

Capitalism is resulting in a flattening of wages that is to say most people earn about the same. The problem is those siphoning off the wealth due to our semi capitalism socialism corrupt system of which high land rent house price is one.

So instead of us being happy with boring jobs that should pay all the bills on a single income plus provide a good home we are unhappy with these jobs not because of the jobs themselves but because te cost of living (syphoning of wealth) is so high.

[All Seeing Eye]

Eton Dave and co talk a good game on competition.

Dave might not get away with it though. Eventually the peasants will revolt.

The peasants didn't revolt when liebore introduced fees in the first place, nor when liebore bankrupt the country necessitating such undesirable actions so why would they revolt against the 2 parties who have very honourably stepped up to the mark to tidy up the financial mess of liebore? Eton Dave eh! So his dads rich, if his dad was black would you have the same sneering Black Dave name calling?

I would however love the peasants to revolt and burn Liebore HQ to the ground, surely they're not all gullible fools and know who the real culprit for their problems are? If not then they deserve to suffer through their own stupidity and will. In fact anyone who voted labour in 2010 after the country very nearly closed down forever, deserves to fail and almost certainly will as they clearly have neither the brains or common sense to achieve anything ever. Hmmm thinking about it actually my friends who stuck with labour at the last election are the less successful ones, too blind to realise liebore have shafted them. The the ex labour, born again tory voters among my friends are the achievers doing well. Guess which group will be most affected by the labour-debt cuts, guess which group will console themselves by blaming the Tories as they lose everything, guess which group will still vote labour again and again and again, guess which group will bang their stupid head against the wall again and again and again and die having learned nothing and wasted their lives.

Edited October 12, 2010 by All Seeing Eye

[cells]

Too risky. Many uni graduates are specialists in stuff like Jane Austen or Kirkegaard or Neo-Patrimonialism in Post-Soviet Afghanistan, etc. These people rare get good jobs, but what they know is important to a civilisation. All they can di is go into teaching, either at schools or unis, and neither of these options, as we all know, constitutes a good job, either in fiscsal remuneration or job satisfaction.

The only way it works is by having academic selection at 11 and again at 13 for those that are slow developers, and again at 15, and then have very high entrance requirements. This worked before but the socialists destroyed it.

universities teach many thousands of kids and over 20 years it would have 100k ex students possibly paying in this would average out risk. Assuming 5k pa graduate.

BTW I would suggest someone who is a "specialist" in neo whatever in post wherever who gets paid a low sum isn't actually that usefully to civilisation and if they were they would get paid for it.

Tbh the vast majority of humans have the sane skill and capacity. Very little differences us all even so called academics and bin men. It is the tendons wages largely seem to be converging. It would be a great were it not for all those mustards stealing wealth at every corner through government and fixed markets.