Jesse James

Berlin Or Uk - Best Place To Buy Property In 2010?

23 posts in this topic

Berlin, Washington or the UK - which one is the best place to buy a property in 2010 (as a long term investment)? I want to buy a 2bed to rent out for at leats 8years then sell...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Jesse James' date='14 April 2010 - 01:27 AM' timestamp='1271204833' post='2472516']
Berlin, Washington or the UK - which one is the best place to buy a property in 2010 (as a long term investment)? I want to buy a 2bed to rent out for at leats 8years then sell...
[/quote]

Berlin property will still have positive cash flow. Yields of about 7-8% can be found with mortgage rates of about 3.5%. I think when it comes to property investing you now need to look at yields. I invested in Germany in 2006 and the yields have stayed the same even after the GFC it is. You will not get much capital appreciation or depreciation.
After 10 years property can be sold without paying capital gains in Germany.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='soldintime' date='14 April 2010 - 02:13 AM' timestamp='1271211220' post='2472546']
Berlin property will still have positive cash flow. Yields of about 7-8% can be found with mortgage rates of about 3.5%. I think when it comes to property investing you now need to look at yields. I invested in Germany in 2006 and the yields have stayed the same even after the GFC it is. You will not get much capital appreciation or depreciation.
After 10 years property can be sold without paying capital gains in Germany.
[/quote]


So you reckon its always best to buy in Berlin (even now - 2010)? Cos you invested in 2006 - is the market still good? Will I still make a decent profit when I sell it in 8years time? Cos I have heard property never go up in Germany even though you will get a good rental yield. What is the best website to search for decent flats in Berlin? Is Charlottenburg the best area to buy?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Jesse James' date='14 April 2010 - 07:44 PM' timestamp='1271267058' post='2473477']
So you reckon its always best to buy in Berlin (even now - 2010)? Cos you invested in 2006 - is the market still good? Will I still make a decent profit when I sell it in 8years time? Cos I have heard property never go up in Germany even though you will get a good rental yield. What is the best website to search for decent flats in Berlin? Is Charlottenburg the best area to buy?
[/quote]

Heyho,

I'd say go for it, Berlin is great. Me and my friends have been investin for the last three years and have never had any doubt. We saw prices growin and yields bein stable! A big plus was our agent! He knew the city and toured us around. He even had a private city guide (that we had to pay for, but she was great 2) and gave us the confidence we needed! As I said, go for Berlin, that city is just booomin! And its summer are beautiful!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Leto' date='16 April 2010 - 11:44 AM' timestamp='1271418292' post='2475917']
Heyho,

I'd say go for it, Berlin is great. Me and my friends have been investin for the last three years and have never had any doubt. We saw prices growin and yields bein stable! A big plus was our agent! He knew the city and toured us around. He even had a private city guide (that we had to pay for, but she was great 2) and gave us the confidence we needed! As I said, go for Berlin, that city is just booomin! And its summer are beautiful!
[/quote]


Btw who is your agent..maybe I can try this agent. Also is Charlottenburg the best area to buy?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
'Berlin Or Uk - Best Place To Buy Property In 2010'?

If you are keen to disipate some excess wealth I would suggest the UK.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Jesse James' date='14 April 2010 - 06:44 PM' timestamp='1271267058' post='2473477']
So you reckon its always best to buy in Berlin (even now - 2010)? Cos you invested in 2006 - is the market still good? Will I still make a decent profit when I sell it in 8years time? Cos I have heard property never go up in Germany even though you will get a good rental yield. What is the best website to search for decent flats in Berlin? Is Charlottenburg the best area to buy?
[/quote]

* As I said before sell after 10 years not 8 years and you do not have to pay capital gains tax.
* Property does go up in Germany, however they had the bubble burst in 1995-1996 especially in eastern Germany. This was due to the reunification and the wall of money that went into this part.
* Berlin has still got its fair share of empty homes. That will keep a lid on rental gains. There are rent tables and there is only so much you can do in terms of increasing it. I have noticed some small decreases.
* Best site is www.immobilienscout24.de use a online translator to navigate if you do not understand German.
* The best yields can be found when you buy a whole apartment block instead of going for individual apartments. Be careful with apartments targeted to overseas investors and also apartments that come with a guaranteed yield (see the stories on this forum)
* I felt most comfortable with investing on a yield basis. Take all cost into consideration, including maintenance, letting agency, financing. After that you want a positive ROI. I would not invest in anything that has a yield of less than 6.5%.
* Finance is hard to come, in 2006 i struggled getting more than 60% finance (although i was self employed, seen as risky in German).
* Be prepared for German bureaucracy, legal work takes a while. To get rid of an unpaid tenant takes more than a year and is costly.
* If you invest in Eastern Germany only invest in Berlin, Leipzig or Dresden, these are the only cities that have growing population. Other cities and smaller towns suffer from depopulation at a rate of 0.5-1% a year.

After 4 years of owning it it is still a good yielding property, even with the occasional hassle. I am lucky my parents live in Germany and can help with the odd translation needed. I bought a 13 apartment block for a price that you can get an average UK home for in the south east. I thoroughly believe that the prices you will find in Berlin are prices that UK property will go to eventually.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
For Berlin areas to invest. Prenzlauerberg is realy nice, Kreuzberg area (especially around the Bergman strasse) and Friedrichschain. Charlottenburg is established and has low yields. Neukoln looks ok and has higher yields but has high unemployment.

In 2006 there were a lot of Irish and UK investor driving up prices. I think they will have gone now and it might be easier to pick up a bargain. Although a friend of mine told me due to such low interest rates, Germans themselves now start to enter the market and realise now there is sufficient yield in investment property.

Feel free to PM me, I have some contacts that could help in financing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I work in the German market. I do not think Berlin prices will increase much over the next 10 years, but relative to the rest of Western Europe (including the UK) prices will be more stable because prices will more and more reflect the economy. In addition, the average Berliner can still easily afford to buy the average Berlin apartment. Where else in western Europe is this true? My business at the moment reflects the global economy in that I only sell repossessions, so the properties are significantly lower priced than the normal market. I always say to clients, forget about growth and focus on secure, high yield. Almost all the repossessions we offer have cold rent yields of 10% or more. If you eventually get growth then it is a bonus. Also consider running costs of owning an apartment. In Berlin most running costs are paid by the tenant. In the UK if you do not manage it yourself, you pay rates (sometimes) and management fees. That is before all the other variable costs.

Seamus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
i looked at berlin/liepzig in 2007 but gave it a miss as i thought the greater depression was on the horizon
buying from
www.immobilienscout24.de
and at auction

apartments and farm/farmland were what i enquired about

theres got to be some LONG TERM value in buying say 5 x 50k euro apartments in areas like charlottenberg in berlin , eg put in 100k euro , borrow 150k euro based on 60% ltv. 60%-68% was the amounts mentioned back in 207 anyway. versus say spending £200k on anything in the uk ??

im not expecting capital increases (although odds of decreases would surely be much lower than taking on a similar uk investment right now ) and being aged 30 i could be sitting on paid off apartments by 50-55 .

in a deflationary environment 6/7% yields will probably be harder and harder to get
or
in an inflationary one these properties will eventually get carried along to some degree with inflation.

either scenario beats holding cash ??

thoughts
?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='getdoon_weebobby' date='04 August 2010 - 01:01 PM' timestamp='1280923292' post='2653484']
i looked at berlin/liepzig in 2007 but gave it a miss as i thought the greater depression was on the horizon
buying from
www.immobilienscout24.de
and at auction

apartments and farm/farmland were what i enquired about

theres got to be some LONG TERM value in buying say 5 x 50k euro apartments in areas like charlottenberg in berlin , eg put in 100k euro , borrow 150k euro based on 60% ltv. 60%-68% was the amounts mentioned back in 207 anyway. versus say spending £200k on anything in the uk ??

im not expecting capital increases (although odds of decreases would surely be much lower than taking on a similar uk investment right now ) and being aged 30 i could be sitting on paid off apartments by 50-55 .

in a deflationary environment 6/7% yields will probably be harder and harder to get
or
in an inflationary one these properties will eventually get carried along to some degree with inflation.

either scenario beats holding cash ??

thoughts
?
[/quote]

I bought in 2006 in Leipzig. Yields were about 10-12% back than. In 2010 I can still report that I am getting 10% yield. Rents have dropped slightly in that period. Germany is now starting to benefit from the cheaper Euro. German economy is growing faster than its peers in Europe.

I do expect deflation to come to Europe so I expect these yields to come down. However they are already low at €4 per sqm in rent.

On the other hand I am reading stories about a mini boom in places like dusseldorf and berlin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='soldintime' date='06 August 2010 - 11:16 AM' timestamp='1281089787' post='2656837']
I bought in 2006 in Leipzig. Yields were about 10-12% back than. In 2010 I can still report that I am getting 10% yield. Rents have dropped slightly in that period. Germany is now starting to benefit from the cheaper Euro. German economy is growing faster than its peers in Europe.

I do expect deflation to come to Europe so I expect these yields to come down. However they are already low at €4 per sqm in rent.

On the other hand I am reading stories about a mini boom in places like dusseldorf and berlin.
[/quote]

sold in time could you perhaps PM me if you have the time , any contacts you used for buying as well as finance of an apartment block purchase.
regards
weebobby

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='doccyboy' date='16 April 2010 - 02:56 PM' timestamp='1271426199' post='2476126']
For another view read this thread on Berlin property
http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=118844

Not such happy stories
[/quote]

The problems that they seem to have had revolve more around trusting other people to make them rich rather than doing their own work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Watching friends try to buy flats in London has left me pretty disenchanted the last few years.
I work for a company that allows me to move and work remote so I have been thinking about Berlin a lot.
Can anyone recommend additional information about buying in Berlin? I will scower through that other thread but Im just interested in buying to live in and not 'investing', which sounds more like infesting to me everytime I hear that word.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='shufflelot' date='16 September 2010 - 10:20 AM' timestamp='1284628846' post='2712138']
Watching friends try to buy flats in London has left me pretty disenchanted the last few years.
I work for a company that allows me to move and work remote so I have been thinking about Berlin a lot.
Can anyone recommend additional information about buying in Berlin? I will scower through that other thread but Im just interested in buying to live in and not 'investing', which sounds more like infesting to me everytime I hear that word.
[/quote]

West Berlin =ageing population in expensive houses

East Berlin = young hipsters in expensive flats

Berlin to live = safe, cheap(ish), fairly dull

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Seamus' timestamp='1277975177' post='2599780']
I work in the German market. I do not think Berlin prices will increase much over the next 10 years, but relative to the rest of Western Europe (including the UK) prices will be more stable because prices will more and more reflect the economy. In addition, the average Berliner can still easily afford to buy the average Berlin apartment. Where else in western Europe is this true? My business at the moment reflects the global economy in that I only sell repossessions, so the properties are significantly lower priced than the normal market. I always say to clients, forget about growth and focus on secure, high yield. Almost all the repossessions we offer have cold rent yields of 10% or more. If you eventually get growth then it is a bonus. Also consider running costs of owning an apartment. In Berlin most running costs are paid by the tenant. In the UK if you do not manage it yourself, you pay rates (sometimes) and management fees. That is before all the other variable costs.

Seamus
[/quote]
Seamus - Do you have repossessions properties in Berlin on offer? If so, can you give me more details, or where I can find such details (website, phone number, etc.)? Tks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='soldintime' timestamp='1271506447' post='2477080']
For Berlin areas to invest. Prenzlauerberg is realy nice, Kreuzberg area (especially around the Bergman strasse) and Friedrichschain. Charlottenburg is established and has low yields. Neukoln looks ok and has higher yields but has high unemployment.

In 2006 there were a lot of Irish and UK investor driving up prices. I think they will have gone now and it might be easier to pick up a bargain. Although a friend of mine told me due to such low interest rates, Germans themselves now start to enter the market and realise now there is sufficient yield in investment property.

Feel free to PM me, I have some contacts that could help in financing.
[/quote]
You mentioned in previous post you used www.immobilienscout24.de and auctions to search for properties. So you attended auctions in person? No intermediaries? Where do these auctions take place? How to get information on when they take place, was they have on offer, etc.?
Any other advice on how to buy apartment blocks most welcome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='shufflelot' timestamp='1284628846' post='2712138']
Watching friends try to buy flats in London has left me pretty disenchanted the last few years.
I work for a company that allows me to move and work remote so I have been thinking about Berlin a lot.[/quote]
Same here. I'm not looking for an "investment". I want to buy a place to live in. I need to be in a major city, but London has moved further out of my reach in the last two years and I despair of finding a place here. Getting tired of renting ... Based on some searches on the Immobilien site, it seems I can afford something quite comfortable in a nice part of Berlin without mortgaging myself to the eyeballs. It looks like there are plenty of purpose-built, high-quality apartment blocks, rather that the cack-handed conversions that we see in London. It seems almost too good to be true... Am I missing something?

I have decided to take a holiday in Berlin with my partner in November. If she can tolerate the idea of living there, then I think we may be heading East. Any recommendations for agents to visit or places to look at? Can anyone tell me if there's an Asian community in Berlin - and where to find Asian food stores if they exist?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Garf' timestamp='1316981208' post='3128841']Can anyone tell me if there's an Asian community in Berlin - and where to find Asian food stores if they exist?
[/quote]
Quick search for "chinesischer markt in berlin" turns up a few ... looks more promising by the minute.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Garf' timestamp='1316981208' post='3128841']
Same here. I'm not looking for an "investment". I want to buy a place to live in. I need to be in a major city, but London has moved further out of my reach in the last two years and I despair of finding a place here. Getting tired of renting ... Based on some searches on the Immobilien site, it seems I can afford something quite comfortable in a nice part of Berlin without mortgaging myself to the eyeballs. It looks like there are plenty of purpose-built, high-quality apartment blocks, rather that the cack-handed conversions that we see in London. It seems almost too good to be true... Am I missing something?

I have decided to take a holiday in Berlin with my partner in November. If she can tolerate the idea of living there, then I think we may be heading East. Any recommendations for agents to visit or places to look at? Can anyone tell me if there's an Asian community in Berlin - and where to find Asian food stores if they exist?
[/quote]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Sceptical' timestamp='1317158887' post='3130987']
My advice would be not to even considering buying in any city you haven't lived in for at least a year. You may not like it!
[/quote]
I hear you. I'm impulsive but not so impulsive that I'd buy a flat on the basis of a short holiday. The first decision is whether to try living there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now