rconti479

Wine

49 posts in this topic

[quote name='Luke Skywalker' post='1743091' date='Mar 16 2009, 08:40 AM']One thing has always confused me though.

I bought the wines in Sterling but the world market for investment grade wines trades in USD/HKD/CHF and Euros as well as GBP. The market seems to be 'made' in London.

So what would you expect to happen to these wine prices if Sterling tanks - say to parity with the dollar?

Any thoughts??[/quote]

Well, if the market is priced in a currency other than sterling, you sell in that currency and you can buy more sterling, so you make (sterling) money. Trebles all round!

And, of course, the opposite can happen - many people in E Europe bought (overpriced) property in recent years with USD or EUR loans - their local currencies have tanked so their debts suddenly got 40%+ bigger - OUCH.

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[quote name='rconti479' post='1864727' date='May 5 2009, 05:27 PM']lol - I've heard the Petrus and Coke story so many times now!

I'm expecting Parker to firm up his scores for the 2005's, but you never know...

Jancis Robinson pulled back her scores and noticed niggly little quirks with the wines in February this year - of course they are at a very awkward stage.

However, the word is that Parker (and Jancis) put the wines in to a bubble and scored them against their peers from 2005, rather than by comparison with other vintages. Hopefully when they really start to sing the 100/100 and 20/20 scores will come thick and fast - at least Parker left himself enough room to lift the wines up another notch or two.

I bought some 2000 Margaux - 20/20 from Jancis, 100/100 from Bob, 5/5 from Broadbent etc etc etc.

Hopefully the next few years will pump up the price -as you say, it will be coming in to its drinking window.

By the by - I really don't understand why there has been such a lack of discussion about wine as an investment at this time. I haven't seen anything in the press either.[/quote]

Well, I've actually been at a lunch in Shanghai when we were served a Lafite (can't remember the vintage) for the top table and lots of Carruades de Lafite (2002) for the guests in ice buckets with choice of Sprite or Coke or 'neat'. Quite a culture shock!

Anyway, I digress. I hope Parker will review the 05's - as you say, he's left himself some room. I saw the JR re-tasting published on Liv-ex in February and I thought she'd praised them to the skies (for the first growths at least). I just reviewed Big Bob's comments on the 2008's and I must say - I think he's lost it. I doubt whether the UK wine trade will agree with his scores - and even if they do, I doubt the market will pay the prices achieved by the 2005's.

Of course, we have to maintain/grow those prices and one thing I have noticed is a number of pretty large new fine wine funds being launched this year. Check out: www.LunzerWineInvestments.com - I'm sure you know of them but there are 2 or 3 more I think. It seems like up to GBP250million of new wine fund money is coming to the market, so I'm hoping that will have an effect on liquidity and demand.

The FT/Economist/Money Week/FEER have had articles on wine investment - but not in any depth. The view seems to be more bullish now than last year - no doubt because of the PR efforts of Lunzer et. al. - which can only be good for us.

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[quote name='Luke Skywalker' post='1866024' date='May 5 2009, 06:52 PM']Well, I've actually been at a lunch in Shanghai when we were served a Lafite (can't remember the vintage) for the top table and lots of Carruades de Lafite (2002) for the guests in ice buckets with choice of Sprite or Coke or 'neat'. Quite a culture shock!

Anyway, I digress. I hope Parker will review the 05's - as you say, he's left himself some room. I saw the JR re-tasting published on Liv-ex in February and I thought she'd praised them to the skies (for the first growths at least). I just reviewed Big Bob's comments on the 2008's and I must say - I think he's lost it. I doubt whether the UK wine trade will agree with his scores - and even if they do, I doubt the market will pay the prices achieved by the 2005's.

Of course, we have to maintain/grow those prices and one thing I have noticed is a number of pretty large new fine wine funds being launched this year. Check out: www.LunzerWineInvestments.com - I'm sure you know of them but there are 2 or 3 more I think. It seems like up to GBP250million of new wine fund money is coming to the market, so I'm hoping that will have an effect on liquidity and demand.

The FT/Economist/Money Week/FEER have had articles on wine investment - but not in any depth. The view seems to be more bullish now than last year - no doubt because of the PR efforts of Lunzer et. al. - which can only be good for us.[/quote]

I've just put together Jancis' scores across three tastings. The first is the February 2009 tasting, the second is October 2008, and the third is the EP tasting of April 2006.

Lafite is the only wine she has marked up, Haut Brion has dropped by two full points, but I'm pretty sure Jancis is taking in to account their current drinkability in their "dumb" state, perhaps trying to ward off those who want to guzzle the wines now:

Ch Haut-Brion 2005 Pessac-Léognan [b]17.5 - 18.5 - 19.5[/b]
Ch Lafite 2005 Pauillac [b]18.5 - 18 - 19[/b]
Ch Latour 2005 Pauillac [b]19 - 19 - 19.5[/b]
Ch Margaux 2005 Margaux [b]18 -19 - 19.5[/b]
Ch Mouton Rothschild 2005 Pauillac [b]18 - 18 - 18.5[/b]

Bob's been getting a bit of a battering from the trade. Berry Bros. launching a mini tirade here [url="http://www.bbr.com/GB/fine-wine/berrys-on-parker"]http://www.bbr.com/GB/fine-wine/berrys-on-parker[/url]

I think the important thing is that in spite of all the bickering and controversy about 2008, 2005 is still seen as the vintage of the decade, and there is enough daylight between it and whatever comes next to secure its near mythical status.

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[quote name='rconti479' post='1867707' date='May 6 2009, 07:22 PM']I've just put together Jancis' scores across three tastings. The first is the February 2009 tasting, the second is October 2008, and the third is the EP tasting of April 2006.

Lafite is the only wine she has marked up, Haut Brion has dropped by two full points, but I'm pretty sure Jancis is taking in to account their current drinkability in their "dumb" state, perhaps trying to ward off those who want to guzzle the wines now:

Ch Haut-Brion 2005 Pessac-Léognan [b]17.5 - 18.5 - 19.5[/b]
Ch Lafite 2005 Pauillac [b]18.5 - 18 - 19[/b]
Ch Latour 2005 Pauillac [b]19 - 19 - 19.5[/b]
Ch Margaux 2005 Margaux [b]18 -19 - 19.5[/b]
Ch Mouton Rothschild 2005 Pauillac [b]18 - 18 - 18.5[/b]

Bob's been getting a bit of a battering from the trade. Berry Bros. launching a mini tirade here [url="http://www.bbr.com/GB/fine-wine/berrys-on-parker"]http://www.bbr.com/GB/fine-wine/berrys-on-parker[/url]

I think the important thing is that in spite of all the bickering and controversy about 2008, 2005 is still seen as the vintage of the decade, and there is enough daylight between it and whatever comes next to secure its near mythical status.[/quote]

Interesting data...many thanks. I read somewhere that many leading UK trade 'figures' didn't even bother to go to Bordeaux for the 2008s. Have you heard about that.

On scoring and its impact on prices, I'm not too sure if the fact that Janis or Bob raises or reduces their scores by a point or a half it makes much difference to market prices for the first growths - especially as close to release date as we are now.

The fact is that the market rates the 2005s as THE vintage of the century - so far. <Bring on climate change!>.

As far a Big Bob is concerned, I agree entirely.

Interestingly, I compiled a list of the 100nwines from all over the world that he'd given 100 points to. I can dig it out if you're interested but I can remember that he had some weird and wonderful stuff on the list. A lot of the wines he scored 100 points have never, ever achieved 'investment grade' status nor sold at particularly high prices.

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Do you have experience of the Premier Bordeaux Wines "EN PRIMEUR PARTNERSHIP PROGRAMME"

• Income investment opportunity.
• 8.9% yield per annum + 60% Profit Share.
• Yield paid within 30 days of purchase.
• Capital gains Tax-Free.
• Commission-free trading.
• No ‘early exit’ penalties.
• No hidden charges.
• Complete transparency at all times.
• Independent valuations.


I have no experience of wine investment.
Under this scheme wine is purchased and stored in your name for 3 years. you get 8.9% pa.
After 3 years the wine is valued, If the value increases you get 60%. If the value decreases you get your original investment back. If the company goes bust you get the wine!

Just looking at it from purely investment point of view, anyone got any comments?

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[quote name='sleepless' post='2050263' date='Aug 2 2009, 10:09 PM']Do you have experience of the Premier Bordeaux Wines "EN PRIMEUR PARTNERSHIP PROGRAMME"

• Income investment opportunity.
• 8.9% yield per annum + 60% Profit Share.
• Yield paid within 30 days of purchase.
• Capital gains Tax-Free.
• Commission-free trading.
• No ‘early exit’ penalties.
• No hidden charges.
• Complete transparency at all times.
• Independent valuations.


I have no experience of wine investment.
Under this scheme wine is purchased and stored in your name for 3 years. you get 8.9% pa.
After 3 years the wine is valued, If the value increases you get 60%. If the value decreases you get your original investment back. If the company goes bust you get the wine!

Just looking at it from purely investment point of view, anyone got any comments?[/quote]

Is there any VAT/duty to be paid on your wine if you need to withdraw the wine or the company goes bust? Would the storage place then chase you for storing the wine if they didn't get the money from the original company? The storage company would be a creditor so why would they release the wine if they were owed money? I don't know about wine, but I was thinking about buying a barrel of whisky and putting it in a bonded warehouse. There was a substantial Customs charge once the barrel had matured and the whisky was ready to be bottled. I don't know if this only applies to whisky or if wine would incur a similar charge before it is released.

This offer looks too good to be true. They say no hidden charges, but do they confirm the annual storage charge?

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[quote name='Spark' post='2050279' date='Aug 2 2009, 10:24 PM']Is there any VAT/duty to be paid on your wine if you need to withdraw the wine or the company goes bust? Would the storage place then chase you for storing the wine if they didn't get the money from the original company? The storage company would be a creditor so why would they release the wine if they were owed money? I don't know about wine, but I was thinking about buying a barrel of whisky and putting it in a bonded warehouse. There was a substantial Customs charge once the barrel had matured and the whisky was ready to be bottled. I don't know if this only applies to whisky or if wine would incur a similar charge before it is released.

This offer looks too good to be true. They say no hidden charges, but do they confirm the annual storage charge?[/quote]
Good points.
Like you I think 8.9%, possible capital growth and money back guarantee sounds too good. Still thinking about it.

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[quote name='sleepless' post='2052408' date='Aug 3 2009, 08:33 PM']Good points.
Like you I think 8.9%, possible capital growth and money back guarantee sounds too good. Still thinking about it.[/quote]

Several problems. You can't look at the price on one of these websites and see it go up and assume you would get more if you sold yours. The bid offer on wine is probably quite high - what does it achieve at auction relative to what is shown on Bordeaux Index? So let's say the bid offer is 6,000/6,800 which might be realistic, that would mean you need 800 of appreciation just to break even if you had to sell.

Also, wine can worsen with time, it's not likely to happen overnight but if every few years they open this stuff and then downrate it then it isnt going to appreciate as fast as you'd like. Plus you are at risk to overall social trends.

It's a nice diversification tactic, but I personally would probably buy a case or two, put them away and forget about them til I actually needed them. If I was ever in need of some cash down the line then sell them then.

[e] With regards to this specific investment, I think the catch is that they are basically borrowing your money to punt on wine. Given that they are a completely unregulated company, 8.9% a year is pretty low borrowing cost. If the wine goes down in value, they do not find new investors to take part in 3 yrs time, or they run into trouble in any other way, you will end up holding your wine and probably taking a loss after administrators are paid. Basically it's a bit of a ponzi scheme. Edited by Charterhouse

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[quote name='Charterhouse' post='2053714' date='Aug 4 2009, 11:52 AM']Several problems. You can't look at the price on one of these websites and see it go up and assume you would get more if you sold yours. The bid offer on wine is probably quite high - what does it achieve at auction relative to what is shown on Bordeaux Index? So let's say the bid offer is 6,000/6,800 which might be realistic, that would mean you need 800 of appreciation just to break even if you had to sell.

Also, wine can worsen with time, it's not likely to happen overnight but if every few years they open this stuff and then downrate it then it isnt going to appreciate as fast as you'd like. Plus you are at risk to overall social trends.

It's a nice diversification tactic, but I personally would probably buy a case or two, put them away and forget about them til I actually needed them. If I was ever in need of some cash down the line then sell them then.

[e] With regards to this specific investment, I think the catch is that they are basically borrowing your money to punt on wine. Given that they are a completely unregulated company, 8.9% a year is pretty low borrowing cost. If the wine goes down in value, they do not find new investors to take part in 3 yrs time, or they run into trouble in any other way, you will end up holding your wine and probably taking a loss after administrators are paid. Basically it's a bit of a ponzi scheme.[/quote]
Conclusion I came to. Will be great if wine price goes up over 3 years, but in a recession?

Will probably stick to 4.5% fixed with FSCS guarantee over 3 years or punt on unit trusts

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[quote name='sleepless' post='2055006' date='Aug 4 2009, 06:47 PM']Conclusion I came to. Will be great if wine price goes up over 3 years, but in a recession?

Will probably stick to 4.5% fixed with FSCS guarantee over 3 years or punt on unit trusts[/quote]

I agree with you wine is a very difficult sellers market theres lots of wine on the market
You have to know about wine to sell it some wines have to be drank within a year others more 2 or 3 maybe 5 years etc
They have to be kept at a certain tempature and "turned often" you have to know about this before investing in wine
Fair enough if you what your doing otherwise put your money onto a savings account in a bank

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[quote name='redwine' post='2058361' date='Aug 5 2009, 09:10 PM']I agree with you wine is a very difficult sellers market theres lots of wine on the market
You have to know about wine to sell it some wines have to be drank within a year others more 2 or 3 maybe 5 years etc
They have to be kept at a certain tempature and "turned often" you have to know about this before investing in wine
Fair enough if you what your doing otherwise put your money onto a savings account in a bank[/quote]

Wine has to be "turned often"? :lol: Sausages perhaps, but not wine.

It goes without saying that you have to know something about what you are buying, or at least be able to do your research, or have access to experts.

Regarding the original contributors to this thread, I can't help feeling they've missed the boat. If you bought some First Growths over the last year, you can still make a profit but really, if you're a wine investor, and want to make some decent money, you have to buy [i]en primeur[/i] and keep in bond for 5-10 years minimum. Margaux and Lafite were available for around £1500 at first release if I remember correctly. That was the time to buy.

I didn't buy any 2005 First Growths, but I have about 20 cases of 2005s, all Cru Classé, bought for an average of £150-£200 a case. I also bought a lot of decent Cru Bourgeois clarets for £60 - £100 a case e.g. Cissac, Brown, Fourcas Hosten etc. I'm planning on drinking most of mine but it's nice to see that they've appreciated by 200-400% since 2006, when I bought.

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I read in the paper that the 2008 1st growths have all gone up by a large amount since their en primeur release. Most of the interest is coming from China. 2008 was an interesting campaign in that the prices reflected the gloom in the wider economy. As sentiment has improved they are beginning to look like a smart buy.....for now!!!!!! :ph34r: ;)

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[quote name='ManInTheStreet' post='2058710' date='Aug 5 2009, 11:40 PM']Wine has to be "turned often"? :lol: Sausages perhaps, but not wine.

It goes without saying that you have to know something about what you are buying, or at least be able to do your research, or have access to experts.

Regarding the original contributors to this thread, I can't help feeling they've missed the boat. If you bought some First Growths over the last year, you can still make a profit but really, if you're a wine investor, and want to make some decent money, you have to buy [i]en primeur[/i] and keep in bond for 5-10 years minimum. Margaux and Lafite were available for around £1500 at first release if I remember correctly. That was the time to buy.

I didn't buy any 2005 First Growths, but I have about 20 cases of 2005s, all Cru Classé, bought for an average of £150-£200 a case. I also bought a lot of decent Cru Bourgeois clarets for £60 - £100 a case e.g. Cissac, Brown, Fourcas Hosten etc. I'm planning on drinking most of mine but it's nice to see that they've appreciated by 200-400% since 2006, when I bought.[/quote]

Yeah, I missed the boat big time, unfortunately, but back in 2006 I just didn't have the readies for any type of investment. :(

However, I'm quite pleased that my hunch a few months back seems to have been okay and that prices have stabilised. The important thing is that I am quite prepared to forget about the wine for up to ten years, perhaps longer, so I am confident of a good return on the wines. Time will probably show that I should have went for Lafite to capitalise on Far Eastern interest, but I've just got a feeling that Margaux may pull away as the jewell in the crown of the 05's and interest in it will heat up over the long term. As Michael Broadbent would say: "we shall see".

Significantly (and encouragingly), Robert Parker's sidekick Neal Martin scored Chateau Margaux (of which I bought 2 cases) 100/100 on June 15th:


[i]"I ended up giving one perfect mark and it went to Château Margaux 2005, which was crowned wine of the flight thanks to what I must assume is an unprecedented five perfect scores from tasters. It was not only perfect from a sensory point-of-view, but this ‘nimbus’ was imbued with something spiritual, a wine the evoked a primal emotional response, as if plugging into the direct mains of Bacchus himself.

Tasted single blind at Southwold. The crystalline nose here is primal, backward, takes some coaxing from the glass: blackberry, bilberry, briary, graphite and a spellbinding sense of mineralite. The palate is beautifully balanced with svelte tannins. Touches of sandalwood inflecting the pure fruit, deftly integrated new oak; incredible length once again. Despite the vice-like grip on the finish there is a feminine quality to this wine. Quite simply: it takes your breath away. Perfection. Drink 2015-2040+ Tasted January 2009."[/i]

That's about as exciting a tasting note as I have ever read from a professional reviewer, much more open than his slightly restrained April 2006 note. I'm hopeful that when Big Bob gets around to tasting it again in the next few years he will wax lyrical just as strongly and land Margaux with another ton, pushing the price up as strongly as he did with the 2008s recently.

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Just back from Bordeaux.

All the Merlot for the 2009 vintage has been picked, still plenty of Cabernet to be harvested.

Gorgeous weather and conditions all Summer.

I spoke to winemakers in Pomerol, St Emilion, Pauillac, Margaux and St Julien - the general feeling is that while 2005 is the vintage of the century, 2009 will be the vintage of the millenium. :lol:

Right Bank producers were ecstatic, while Left Bank winemakers were understandably more reticent as they still had to get the bulk of their crop in - incredibly late - zero rot, maximum ripeness, sugar etc.

This is going to be a big one - Parker has already said it might just be a wee bit too hot compared to the perfection of 2005, but certainly a vintage to invest in.

One negociant I spoke to expects the en primeur price of the first growths to be set around 4,000euro per case!

Watch this space.

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Anyone invested in Bordeaux 2005/06 (or who wants to be) should read this --

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gbaO6lXZmxtXkqpyreBFk3IZ-hpA

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[quote name='rconti479' date='03 March 2009 - 06:07 PM' timestamp='1236100061' post='1711412']
Just bought:

2 cases Ch Margaux 2005 @ £6500 per case
1 case Ch Margaux 2000 @ £7000 per case
2 cases other 2005's @ £2250

Total: £22,250

I have now moved the money out of my Bank of Ireland account in to something tangible - a huge relief.

I intend to sit back and see in 3-5 years how things are looking.

I'll update every now and again about how my investment is doing...for better or worse.
[/quote]

Well, one year and one month has passed since I bought my wine (as outlined above) and today I checked winesearcher.com to see what they are now worth, and the total is...

£25,332

(up 13.8%)

Also, the first reports on the hugely anticipated 2009s are coming through and Livex reckons that it will drink earlier than 2005 - there seems to be a feeling that some of the major producers blew it, although the First Growths look fantastic. Edited by rconti479

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[quote name='rconti479' date='03 March 2009 - 05:07 PM' timestamp='1236100061' post='1711412']
Just bought:

2 cases Ch Margaux 2005 @ £6500 per case
1 case Ch Margaux 2000 @ £7000 per case
2 cases other 2005's @ £2250
[/quote]
That should be about right for the HPC dinner party. So when is it to be?

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[quote name='porca misèria' date='07 April 2010 - 11:39 PM' timestamp='1270679954' post='2464969']
That should be about right for the HPC dinner party. So when is it to be?
[/quote]

:P

Parker has now released his scores for the 2009, and it's safe to say he rates it above the 2005 vintage. As such, en primeur prices are going to be incredible - Bordeaux Index is quoting a guide price for Lafite of £12,000 per case.

I find all this to be quite worrying - it reminds me of the financial gluttony of three or four years ago and I think I spot a bubble.

I can't think of another field where one person has so much influence - Parker's voice is overwhelming, but I now have a big problem with the guy. He rated the miraculous 2005 vintage as the finest ever, and now he is claiming the same for the 2009 - the amount of 98-100/100 scores he has doled out for vintages from the 2000s has been, quite frankly, ridiculous and he has stoked the market to frenzied levels. Of course, I'm in this game as well, but I'm starting to feel uneasy - I wonder if and when people will start to wise up to Parker and realise what's going on. It's very noticeable that other writers have lauded the 2009 vintage but they have voiced concerns about the quality of certain estates - Jancis Robinson was not keen at all on Cos D'Estournel, for instance, but Parker absolutely raved about it. Jancis' reviews seem to be much more balanced and thoughtful, whereas Parker just screams that everything is brilliant.

However, if Lafite and the other First growths are released at around the £10,000 mark it will have a marked effect on my wines, driving the price up as they will look a bit underpriced by comparison at around £7000 a case for more mature vintages.

Since my last post at the start of April my wines have increased in value by a further £600 - I'll be keeping a very close eye on things: hopefully the en primeur campaign will be successful, but the Bordelais will need to be careful they don't price themselves to highly or there could be trouble.

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[quote name='rconti479' date='01 May 2010 - 08:06 PM' timestamp='1272715567' post='2495541']
:P

Parker has now released his scores for the 2009, and it's safe to say he rates it above the 2005 vintage. As such, en primeur prices are going to be incredible - Bordeaux Index is quoting a guide price for Lafite of £12,000 per case.

I find all this to be quite worrying - it reminds me of the financial gluttony of three or four years ago and I think I spot a bubble.

I can't think of another field where one person has so much influence - Parker's voice is overwhelming, but I now have a big problem with the guy. He rated the miraculous 2005 vintage as the finest ever, and now he is claiming the same for the 2009 - the amount of 98-100/100 scores he has doled out for vintages from the 2000s has been, quite frankly, ridiculous and he has stoked the market to frenzied levels. Of course, I'm in this game as well, but I'm starting to feel uneasy - I wonder if and when people will start to wise up to Parker and realise what's going on. It's very noticeable that other writers have lauded the 2009 vintage but they have voiced concerns about the quality of certain estates - Jancis Robinson was not keen at all on Cos D'Estournel, for instance, but Parker absolutely raved about it. Jancis' reviews seem to be much more balanced and thoughtful, whereas Parker just screams that everything is brilliant.

However, if Lafite and the other First growths are released at around the £10,000 mark it will have a marked effect on my wines, driving the price up as they will look a bit underpriced by comparison at around £7000 a case for more mature vintages.

Since my last post at the start of April my wines have increased in value by a further £600 - I'll be keeping a very close eye on things: hopefully the en primeur campaign will be successful, but the Bordelais will need to be careful they don't price themselves to highly or there could be trouble.
[/quote]

Very interesting post.
I am like you - I look at my wine portfolio only every quarter. I agree with your comments on Bobby Boy's influence and I worry about what will happen when he shuffles off the mortal coil.... :P

Where do you see the 2005's going if 2009 turns out to be a stonking vintage and would you consider buying 2009's en primeur?

Manin The Street's gratitutous advice is obvious and (anyway) I am buying to make cash - so I am in First Growths and not Crus Bourgeois.

Congrats on your portfolio gains - excellent job in a (relatively) short time frame!

Last month, I was offered GBP9.5K by a London dealer for my Le Pin 1996 that I bought in October 2008 for GBP5.4K.

I turned him down.... B)

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[quote name='ManInTheStreet' date='06 August 2009 - 06:40 AM' timestamp='1249512050' post='2058710']
Wine has to be "turned often"? :lol: Sausages perhaps, but not wine.

It goes without saying that you have to know something about what you are buying, or at least be able to do your research, or have access to experts.

Regarding the original contributors to this thread, I can't help feeling they've missed the boat. If you bought some First Growths over the last year, you can still make a profit but really, if you're a wine investor, and want to make some decent money, you have to buy [i]en primeur[/i] and keep in bond for 5-10 years minimum. Margaux and Lafite were available for around £1500 at first release if I remember correctly. That was the time to buy.

I didn't buy any 2005 First Growths, but [b]I have about 20 cases of 2005s, all Cru Classé, bought for an average of £150-£200 a case. I also bought a lot of decent Cru Bourgeois clarets for £60 - £100 a case e.g. Cissac, Brown, Fourcas Hosten etc. I'm planning on drinking most of mine but it's nice to see that they've appreciated by 200-400% since 2006, when I bought.[/b]
[/quote]

Hardly Investment Grade wines are they??? B)
Nice to drink when they are ready though!! :lol:

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[quote name='ManInTheStreet' date='09 November 2009 - 11:35 PM' timestamp='1257780954' post='2235012']
Anyone invested in Bordeaux 2005/06 (or who wants to be) should read this --

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gbaO6lXZmxtXkqpyreBFk3IZ-hpA
[/quote]
Classic tactic to try collapse a rising market and let the big boys buy in at a lower price IMHO.
B)

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[quote name='Luke Skywalker' timestamp='1275851314' post='2557859']
Hardly Investment Grade wines are they??? B)

[/quote]

That's a bit snooty, and actually quite inaccurate.

ALL Cru Classé / Cru Bourgeois clarets in a decent year are "investment grade". I don't have the figures in front of me, but I bet that all pretty much appreciate at the same rate. So as an investment, buying a single case of Latour may work out roughly the same as buying, say, 40 cases of Batailley, but they are likely to increase in value 'pro rata', so in a sense it doesn't matter whether you put all your eggs in one basket or not. It's no different from an investor deciding between putting his cash in one hot stock, or diversifying.

If you think your case of Margaux or Haut Brion etc is a sure-fire winner, then put sink all your capital into those 12 bottles and hope you're right. If you prefer to spread the risk, and the same amount of cash, across a wider range of wines, go for it. Personally I prefer the latter option as it means I can actually drink a few of the buggers as well as sell a lot for a decent profit.

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[quote name='rconti479' timestamp='1235218074' post='1684713']
Reading around here and there, I'm getting very scared about my £25,000 sitting in the bank.

I'm worried about hyperinflation and the entire banking system collapsing.

I'm going to buy two cases of Chateau Margaux 2005 at £6,700 per case and two cases of the 2000 vintage at £6,500 a case.[/quote]

Wonder how his worked out for him. Think it's a loss, minus storage fees over that time too.

I'm thinking this is also him below, from a different forum, but before a username change, judging by one of the replies.

http://www.debtordebt.com/forum/a-question-about-asset-disposal-before-bankruptcy-t12470.html

[quote]I am considering an IVA or bankruptcy in the UK prior to emigrating to New Zealand.

Although I have a lot of debts I currently have some fine wine worth about £20,000. [/quote]

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One wonders....

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/843939-fraudsters-made-2-5m-from-fine-wine-scam
[quote]

[b]Fraudsters made £2.5m from ‘fine wine scam’
[/b]

[b]Wealthy investors who thought they were buying fine and rare wines were victims of a ‘perfect’ £2.5million scam, a court was told.
[/b]
Investors thought they were buying fine and rare wines The wine did not exist and the money taken from customers was spent on ‘high living: foreign holidays, jewellery, fast cars and the like’, it was claimed.


The fraudsters set up three bogus companies, Bordeaux Wine Trading Company, International Wine Commodities and Templar Vintners, which had only one case of fine wine between them over three years,’ St Alband crown court, in Hertfordshire, heard.

‘The sales pitch to potential investors involved hard selling over the phone promising Premier Cru wine sold “en primeur”,’ prosecutor Ann Evans said.


This means that the wine is purchased whilst still in the barrel at the vineyard, the jury heard. It is then bottled and shipped to Britain where it is kept in bonded warehouses and does not attract VAT or capital gains tax.

‘It is not released to the client immediately, the client is simply issued with a Certificate of Purchase and so no suspicions are aroused in the first instance. It is a perfect vehicle for a scam,’ she added.


‘The beauty of this scam was that the investors were not expecting to see the goods they had purchased for some considerable time – years even.’

One investor alone parted with £100,000.


Five men Niklaus Cashman, 31, 37-year-old Paul Craven, Oseghale Hayble, 32, Benedict Moruthoane, 38 and 36-yearold Andrew Griffith, all from London, are charged with fraud. Anita Linskill, 27, from Bournemouth, is accused of transferring criminal property.


Read more: [url="http://www.metro.co.uk/news/843939-fraudsters-made-2-5m-from-fine-wine-scam#ixzz1sPTuUHJ7"]http://www.metro.co.uk/news/843939-fraudsters-made-2-5m-from-fine-wine-scam#ixzz1sPTuUHJ7[/url]

[/quote]

There was a documentary on bbc as well iirc.

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